bioshockfandomcom-20200223-history
Talk:Kashmir Restaurant
BioShock 2 Cutscene Image There seems to be this edit war going on whether or not to include this image from the BioShock 2 opening cutscene. Evans0305 and I believe it depicts the Kashmir Restaurant whereas Unownshipper and User 75.137.146.232 believe it only depicts the Adonis Luxury Resort and not the Kashmir. I'm the first to post here, so let me make my point: Unownshipper pointed out correctly that the neon signs in the cutscene place the area within the Luxury Resort. However, the layout, color and furnishings in the room are reminescent of the Kashmir and the Footlight Theater. Furthermore, most of the patrons are wearing masks, and we know the Masquerade Ball took place at the Kashmir just before the 1958 New Year's Eve Riots (which also means that Delta likely died moments before the riots took place). My idea is that the Kashmir and the Adonis Resort are both part of the same area, i.e. the Welcome Center, which is plausible since most passageways in both locations are blocked when the player navigates through them. It'd also fit with the upper-class venue theme common to both. What do you guys think? --Willbachbakal 14:53, June 18, 2012 (UTC) I'd say that's plausible; unlike the other areas of Bioshock 2 (such as Pauper's Drop and Siren Alley), Adonis does seem to be more "upper class" (like the areas of the first game, examples being Fort Frolic and the Kashmir Restaurant, as well as Arcadia). The name itself is even Adonis Luxury Resort. Heck, there's even an Audio Diary by Andrew Ryan himself there. Key of Destiny 15:09, June 18, 2012 (UTC) Okay, I get that there's a lot of flak for this image because it's located in Adonis, but there's a lot of connectivity that shows that not only was this scene meant to be the Kashmir, but that it was meant to be near and above the Adonis Luxury Resort: *Both Paulio and Gamesarchivist found that there was a different prelude to BioShock 2 that was more likely removed or altered, but still has its loading screens and sound files in the game (such as the radio broadcast message of the New Year's eve riots, and the recycled but unused Brenda and Charlie conversations from BS1). The screens show the pre-civil war locations of The Welcome Center, The Kashmir Restaurant, and the Transit Hub: Loading Prelude 1.jpg|In the Kashmir Restaurant, downstairs. Loading Prelude 2.jpg|In the restaurant, on the stage downstairs and facing the bar. Loading Prelude 3.jpg|Entrance to the Bathysphere Station in the Welcome Center. Loading Prelude 4.jpg|The Atlas statue before it exploded. Loading Prelude 5.jpg|The Transit Hub, leading to the Medical Pavilion and Neptune's Bounty. This prelude more likely relates to Jordan Thomas' original "Sea of Dreams" take on the game, which in one of its concept ideas, players were suppose to see a prewar Rapture through dream-like flashbacks, almost like the "ghosts" in BS1, but played more like the Little Sister's vision in the Outer Persephone level. This feature, along with other ideas , was edited from most of the game because they wouldn't allow for the Player to do anything but watch the events happen. Its more likely that since the Adonis level was listed as "Prelude-2", it could have meant either the Adonis was a 2nd prelude to the game, or there was a 2nd version of the prelude, or the video could have been meant to be a playable area leading to Adonis (much like BS1's prelude plane scene that had it as a level, and showed the passengers in front were just Breadwinners as fodder models). *Even though BioShock 2 had an altered version on some of BS1's areas, the Multiplayer level of the Kashmir shows that it is a possible sub-extension adjacent of the Kashmir from the first game, as shown by the Atlas Statue seen outside of the Silk Lounge (which in BS1, you can see there's a building facing next to that Kashmir Restaurant area). It also shares a lot of the same colors and patterns of what was seen in the video, and could also explain the additional signs near the area for the Adonis and Atlantic Express. *There was a similar case when Fort Frolic was originally meant as the entrance to Dionysis Park, so that could be the case with editing the Kashmir and Adonis. *Like Willbachbakal mentioned, the area of the Kashmir in the first game has blocked additional passageways that could go around or to the Adonis and/or the Kashmir locations. There's a 2nd floor below the Kashmir Restaurant that players can see a Toasty Splicer knocking at a door (which one of those doors could be suggested as the Adonis), and the added tunnels, which get blown apart by Jack's plane tail, show that there's a different route to the Adonis and the Kashmir ( or the Kashmir's 2nd building, which also explains the Multiplayer's version of the Kashmir having Securis doors). Speaking of which... *Jack's plane tail can be seen near the Adonis Luxury Resort, so why would that be there in BS2, especially specifically near that area? Evans0305 03:32, June 19, 2012 (UTC) Well, the plane tail is easily explained away; if the Adonis Resort is, in fact, located in the Welcome Center, then it could have simply floated there somehow after the entire tunnel collapsed (the rapidly-flooding tunnel you have to cross through in the beginning of the first game). I agree; there were numerous blocked passages and doors throughout the first game; the door located on the incaccessible level (due to the elevator exploding and catching fire) could have easily led to the Adonis Resort. There's also a ton of wreckage blocking the other upward staircase in the Transit Hub, rendering that area unexplorable. Key of Destiny 13:50, June 19, 2012 (UTC) Ok, since this discussion has mostly been devoted to arguments for why this could be the Kashmir, I'll play Devil's Advocate for why it almost certainly is not. First, let us consider all of the signs suggesting that the area is the Adonis Luxury Resort: the plaquard to the right of the Little Sister vent, the neon marquis outside the row of windows in the hall, and the sign above the staircase in the Transit Hub where Delta fights the Splicers (visible with high resolution versions). I find it highly unlikely that Delta would be in the Adonis to start out with, enter the Welcome Center by going into the Kashmir, and then be back in the Adonis by entering the Transit Hub. Second, the restaurant where this party takes place doesn't match the architecture of the Kashmir from the first game. By that I mean that things are not arranged in the same spots they were in the original. For example, Delta goes through a door, enters the space, and is facing the stage. That door would have had to be in the space where the bar is in the BS1 Kashmir Restraurant, but there is no door there. Additionally, the hallway next to the stage is a long, open hall, but in the first game, there was a door and a sign for the Footlight Theater overhead. Lastly, in the Transit Hub, instead of the glass partition which surrounded the upper level, there is a normal railing which Delta leaps over to attack his enemies. It's been mentioned that this space and the Kashmir have similar decor (especially because of the stage), but that doesn't mean they are the same. Also, the Masquerade Ball was celebrated all over Rapture, not just in the Kashmir. I'm willing to conceed the idea that this area is a redesign from the Kashmir from the Prelude, but in its final form it's a seperate place. I submit that this is not the Kashmir Restaurant, but rather is some other restaurant or lounge in the Adonis Resort; possibly an unseen adjoining part of Demeter's Banquet Hall. Unownshipper 03:29, June 20, 2012 (UTC) :I agree with all of Unownshipper's points above. We have lots of direct evidence that the cinematic took place in the Adonis, but we only have speculation that the Adonis Luxury Resort and Welcome Center were connected. The location of the Apollo Air plane tail makes a connection seem highly probable, but we don't know for sure. Therefore, I suggest just leaving the cinematic image out of this article. One image is really not a big deal anyway. ~'Gardimuer' [[User talk:Gardimuer|{ ʈalk }]] 04:03, June 20, 2012 (UTC) ::I'd be inclined to agree, but I still think there's a simple way to verify this. The New Year's Eve Riots article indicates the Kashmir hosted the Masquerade Ball. Now, if the Kashmir was the only place to have done so, then the above image would represent the Kashmir without any doubt. However, if the Kashmir was only one of several venues to host the Ball, then the image shouldn't be added. --Willbachbakal 12:54, June 20, 2012 (UTC) :::I always figured that New Years Eve parties were celebrated in many places throughout Rapture, and masks were popular New Years attire that year, similar to how themed hats and glasses are worn in different cities all over the world on New Years in real life. The Kashmir restaurant was the main venue for the high-class New Years ball, but masks are so prevalent among the Splicer population in-game that they must have been very common, even for revelers who didn't attend the party at the Kashmir. ~'Gardimuer' [[User talk:Gardimuer|{ ʈalk }]] 16:13, June 20, 2012 (UTC) :::: I was surfing the web when I came upon this image. From the poster's caption, this was a screenshot during the installation process of Bioshock 2. Tricksteroffools (talk) 21:40, May 30, 2014 (UTC) :::::Can you include the link? :::::Unownshipper (talk) 21:43, May 30, 2014 (UTC) If I remember correctly, this is the loading screen for the installation for BioShock 2 on PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360. I compliantly forgot about this. --Shacob (talk) 21:49, May 30, 2014 (UTC) ::That's from the installation on PS3 and Xbox 360? And no one ever noticed that or reported it here on the wiki?! That's clearly a shot from the original prelude level! Pauolo (talk) 22:49, May 30, 2014 (UTC) :::::: http://charliefishxd.tumblr.com/image/87313347210 Tricksteroffools (talk) 21:50, May 30, 2014 (UTC) I know! When I downloaded Bio2 for Ps3 I wasn't that big of a fan so I didn't realize it at all, I'm quite confused. On the picture from tumblr it even says this: "We’ve been sitting in front of the installing screen for about 15 minutes now listening to the notrious 1950’s elevator music"....and yes that is from the cut level. --Shacob (talk) 00:04, May 31, 2014 (UTC) :I hope someone can extract that screen from the Ps3/Xbox 360 versions, because that's the clearer image we have so far of that level. I also wonder if the demo "Hunting the Big Sister" wouldn't have been a follow-up of this level since the map passed by Atlas' statue. Pauolo (talk) 10:41, May 31, 2014 (UTC) ::Just wanted to double check and update, has or can anyone possibly take a screenshot or find the files via PS3/ Xbox 360 of possible prelude shots (when installing the game on said systems)? Tricksteroffools (talk) 22:16, June 13, 2014 (UTC) Guests A valid point Unownshipper, the broadcast is made by the developers and was found on files in the game, that should make it canon. But then again I dont see Langford and Suchong as "Party People" but the Steve Barker one is highly believable. untill we figure this out I will put the list here: Known guests at the 1959 Masquerade Ball *Anna Culpepper *Brigid Tenenbaum *Daniel Wales *Diane McClintock *J.S. Steinman *Julie Langford *Silas Cobb *Simon Wales *Steve Barker *Yi Suchong Shacob (talk) 21:18, January 22, 2014 (UTC) The video was fan made and this info is incorrect. Shacob (talk) 22:48, May 31, 2014 (UTC) :The audio was official marketing but they certainly did not think much of which character would appear on that night. Pauolo (talk) 09:17, June 1, 2014 (UTC) :Really? o.o Suchong and Langford at the Kashmir.... I find it hard to belive. It all just seems a little sloppy. :Shacob (talk) 16:48, June 1, 2014 (UTC) Inside of the BaS Restaurant could someone use concole command and go out in the ocean and take o close up photo of what we can see from the inside of the restaurant or find the texture or something? Shacob (talk) 20:53, February 13, 2014 (UTC) 23:29, January 27, 2014 (UTC) Had not noticed this before. Here are some close up pics of the Kashmir. The layout does not match the one seen in BioShock at all. In fact it looks more than a little like the Manta Ray Lounge. This is just a number of textures on a model to make it look like you are looking through a window, nothing more. sm --Solarmech (talk) 18:41, October 13, 2017 (UTC) Kashmir Vista 1.png Kashmir Vista 2.png Kashmir Vista 3.png I'm really thankful for this, although I requested it 3 years ago, it is fun to finally see this and get closure: It is indeed just textures - interesting and quite detailed textures - but still, not the Kashmir. --Shacob (talk) 22:16, October 13, 2017 (UTC) It looks like the same image used for the other windows you see around Rapture at the start of the episode, just that the others are smaller and hide a lot of the detail. I undertand using the same texture for the smaller windows but since the Kashmir is so Huge and takes center stage of the massive view of the city I don't understand why they couldnt of used an actual model resempling the interior of the resturant from BioShock, or even just a flat image edited to appear in prisitine condition. Night at the Kashmir (talk) 12:17, October 14, 2017 (UTC) It's a puzzel to me as well why they keep the same look as in BioShock. I know it's not supposed to be seen clsoe up, but even at a distence you can still tell it's not the same. A puzzel that goes along with that is the look of Rapture itself, the style of the buildings and layout of the city is totaly differant (and Rapture is much much larger) as well. The already HAD much of the original layout of Rapture done since it was used at the end of BSI. I guess they just wanted to rebuild Rapture bigger and better and to heck with it not looking the same. On a side note I found the original skybox for Rapture (res_skybox) from BioShock in BaS Ep 1's texture files. sm --Solarmech (talk) 14:41, October 14, 2017 (UTC) : It would have been cool if they had a telescope, like the interactive ones in Columbia, that you could use to get a closer look inside the restaurant and see people setting up the decorations for the New Years eve party. Night at the Kashmir (talk) 11:11, October 16, 2017 (UTC) Merely the Entrance : : :That's a perfectly fine theory (I think the skybox matches up with it actually), but there's no way to prove it. As for the McDonalds you visited, I'm sure it was bigger than the Kashmir, but that's a modern building and in Rapture space comes at a premium. :I'm not fully behind the idea that the backgrounds from game 1 don't matter. You know someone put effort into all the details in the game like the backgrounds. :Personally, I'd like it if the game designers paid attention to some of the discussions on sites like this and (in the next BAS or some other sequel that returns to Rapture) they would connect the Bio1 Kashmir with the KRMM exactly the way you indicated. Until that time, the Bio1 Kashmir is canon and the multiplayer map is a redesign like all the other multi maps. :Unownshipper (talk) 22:39, February 17, 2014 (UTC) The Bomb ones again Kashmir........ should we add the bomb to the history section. It was a really big part of the attack. not many people in the game refer the attack as an attack, but as an bombing. I just listened to the Audio diary by Diane MacClintock: New Year's Eve Alone, and the attack starts with a explosion. armed with guns, explosives and burst into.... " how do you run in with explosives? its not like they had time to wire bombs or shoot rockets of some sort in the restaurant, and you don't hear any other explosions in the audio diary then the one that cuts Diane off. Reference to the bomb. *Diane McClintock : New Year's Eve Alone :Silly enough to fall in love with Andrew Ryan, silly enough to... EXPLOSION *Grace Holloway : Closing the Limbo Room : "down the Limbo. Bomb goes off in that fancy place uptown, and everybody panics..." *This copy of Rapture Tribune: *Concept art for BioShock 2: (all do, its not sure if this is canon but they show the explosion) as you can see it was the bomb that was the main focus of the attack... I made this because someone didn't think the bomb was necessary to add in the page --Shacob (talk) 23:22, February 19, 2014 (UTC) :I agree, I know this was an area of contention before, but I think there's more than enough information to suggest a pre-orchestrated bombing effort. Where the bombs were planted (I still think one was set up in the Atlas statue) is not of importance so long as we add the details to the page. :Unownshipper (talk) 08:04, February 21, 2014 (UTC) :I also believe it was in the atlas statue, you can clearly see that it was blown up from the inside. btw do we have any evidence that the restaurant was held open after the attack? I don't see how it could manage to stay open after an attack like that, and there's still decoration from the new years eve party, they would have taken them down after the party in normal cases? --Shacob (talk) 14:52, March 3, 2014 (UTC) :A huge number of factors effect how much damage a bomb does. How large was it? What were the quality of the explosives? How exactly was it positioned? Did it have anything attached to it to direct the blast (a shaped charge)? You can't know how much or how little damage it did unless you had WAY more information. All that is known is the damage to the statue, the upper floor railing, and other parts of the restraunt. I don't doubt that the bomb was mainly meant for disorientation, but clearly there was some collateral damage that couldn't have been done by a simple firearm. Also, you don't know for certain where Diane was. :Most of these things are meant to be implied. It's stiff, self-conscious, and unnatural to have something explained in that much detail (it's spoon-feeding the plot to the player). Would you have preferred if Jack walks into Rapture and trips over an encyclopedia that summarizes every little detail of what happened in the past year or would you like to piece together the clues like an archaeolgist? The latter is more intriguing and more realistic. :You're assuming that the bomb happened and people immediately went back to the Kashmir? Think of Pearl Harbor or 9/11. People need a time to grieve, Rapture Security probably wanted time to sift through the rubble for clues, citizens would have been unlikely to want to return to the Kashmir considering how many of their friends and neighbors were killed there. Also, you're still basing this off the assumption that the Multiplayer Kashmir is canon. :Why would Atlas' followers blow up the Atlas statue after the New Year's attack? What possible purpose could that serve? Even as a show of force it seems incredibly unlikely and like a wast of effort and supplies, especially if the business had closed by then. :Unownshipper (talk) 23:12, March 3, 2014 (UTC) ::::Come on, you know that the windows and exterior walls are super think/reinforced to withstand the ocean pressure. A bomb could easily have damaged the interior without causing damage to the building. Once again, a shaped charge could have directed the blast in one direction (inward towards the reception dsk) and caused the damage seen without blasting the windows (the opposite direction). ::::What do you mean by relatively intect? The place is a mess (little, if any, clean up had occurred by 1960). Brenda's presence indicates nothing except that she survived the Civil War and sought refuge in her former place of work. Ryan can encourage people to resume their normal lives via the P.A. announcements, but that doesn't mean they will (especially if they're afraid of repeat attacks at the restraunt). ::::You find it contrived, I do not (either way, it doesn't effect the current issue we're discussing). Ryan had always feared intrusion by CIA or KGB, so his response seems mostly in character for him. Likewise, Atlas' "Go to Neptune's Bounty" plea would seem perfectly natural if you were thrust into this scary situation like Jack must have been. "Imagine if you had heard the Diana McClintock finding Fontaine Audio Diary"... I'm not going to entertain "What if" questions right here. They're a fun thought exercise, but don't change this current discussion. ::::Why not? Because no one has asserted that ALL the other BioShock 2 Multiplayer Locations are canon, too. It's all or nothting (we can't just pick and choose what levels are real from individual games) and the other maps are clearly redesigns. As I've stated, the Kashmir is just a regular (if posh) place to party in Bio1; if becoems the place to be in Bio2 when a different set of designers were working on it. If that answer doesn't satisfy you, then maybe the Kashmir was chosen over Demeter's BECAUSE it was more intimate (ie, more exclusive) than other places. Here, only a small number of elite (the true creme de la creme) could gain entry while the social climbers were shut out. ::::It only works as a symbolic act if the venue is still active, and this place looks like it hasn't been in operation since New Years. Otherwise it's a waste of material and manpower that could be used fighting your enemies. If they blew it up and no one was there to notice it, then congratulations, you've wasted a bomb. I'm not buying it. ::::Respectfully, Unownshipper (talk) 22:01, March 6, 2014 (UTC) :First of all, please don't bring up Bioshock 2 multiplayer Kashmir again... Me and Unownshiper came in to a conclusion that we will not add the "possibility" to the Kashmir instead we added it to the talk page of Bioshock 2 Multiplayers Kashmir there you can also see the whole argument. :Now for the bomb and the open times: Idle Thumbs had a broadcast with designer JP LeBreton that made a walk through of BioShock ''with commentary. off course he goes through the Kashmir and comments on many things and about the bomb: he stands in front of the Atlas statue on the second floor and talks about the attack a bit and at the exact moment when he say "''where a terrorist bomb exploded" he points to the hole in the statue and later he says "in Kashmir the part with the blown up statue" :then he goes to the bottom floor and comments on the blocked door that leads to the Footlight was supposed to have a lot more bodies do to that during the attack the guest panics and ran to the doors at the same time trampling each other but they didn't include it doe to performers reasons. now if that's not enough proof, The thing that seals it is the new years eve decoration for 1959! if the restaurant was open they would have taken away the decoration. check the videos out: http://www.twitch.tv/idlethumbs/b/322438377 --Shacob (talk) 19:48, March 4, 2014 (UTC) :::Something of a fallacy there Shacob. What you describe suggests that the bombing occurred and, but does not prove that it occurred during the attack. Those New Years decorations were still around in 1960 and there would have been many casualties to the attack whether the bomb happened then or not. There's no reason to include such a detail as part of the attack. Certainly you can mention it as something that happened at some point, but saying it started the attack is too much speculation. The good news is that Burial at Sea may give us some clarity on this matter (Though if the attack directly proceeds after Fontaine's escape from the department store, a pre-placed bomb seems unlikely. 02:47, March 5, 2014 (UTC) :::Well user 150.209.41.32, I didn't think I have'd to say it but before he says "where a terrorist bomb exploded" h''e says: "''Its the new years party ''where a terrorist bomb exploded". ''I rest my case.' :::and for you user: 75.36.140.13, I am sorry if what i said was misleading, I meant you can go and talk on the Bioshock 2 multiplayer Kashmir about the other Area possibility. Burial at Sea is in fact canon everything that happens here is what happened before Bioshock . it has been stated several times by Ken Levine himself. :::Shacob (talk) 15:45, March 5, 2014 (UTC) :::More conclusive if he said ""''Its the new years party ''where a terrorist bomb exploded, THERE" ... :::"''un-signed user" ::: :::well.... I gues I will put his whole sentence this time to avoid these kind off arguments I will put the important sections in the "bold" font. So when hes inside the Kashmir he says: "so this is ofcouse the '''Kashmir', I promise that the density of landmarks and call outs will lesson as time goes on but there's obviously significant stuff. This is probably one of the defining images of BioShock here" (While looking at the Statue and 1959 sign from the secend floor) "''because, you know, Its the new years party 'where A terrorist bomb exploded here at the Kashmir killing a bunch of aristocrats' and this was really the night when everything started to go down the tubes in Rapture......." :::Shacob (talk) 19:09, March 6, 2014 (UTC) Open For Business Seperated from the above discussion on April 16, 2014 Okey I need to bring up the fact again that there's no way that the restaurant remained open! There's still decoration from new years eve! if they staid open they would have removed them after the party! Who would want to go to a restaurant after such a incident and be reminded by the attack by looking around and seeing "Happy 1959"?? Shacob (talk) 05:37, April 16, 2014 (UTC) ::" "because, you know, Its the new years party 'where A terrorist bomb exploded here at the Kashmir killing a bunch of aristocrats' and this was really the night when everything started to go down the tubes in Rapture..."' ::::↑ What does this comment you just made have to do with anything? Unownshipper (talk) 01:22, April 17, 2014 (UTC) :::: ---- :::Of course people show up looking for food just like in any other place in Rapture, but I don't see chefs and other staff staying there, they got there own things to take care of. As we know, the civil war was insane (judging from Bioshock 2 Multiplayer) It would be dangerous to have such a place; Splicers would just kill the citizens that where trying to help and take food for themselves. And don't forget about the philosophy: every man for themselves, charity was looked down on. If any, areas such as Paupers Drop is more likely to have such a place. :::Where would the get the food? when the halls of Rapture is turned in to a battle field and the bathysphere lock down, I don't see these people gathering food and taking them to another place and risking there lives for such a cause. :::Shacob (talk) 18:33, April 16, 2014 (UTC) ::::Oh My God, are we still on this!? There's NO indication that the Kashmir remained in service after the New Year's attack. Contributor , whom I just assume is User:Testxyz, I sincerely have to ask are you simply trolling? I don't see how you can rationalize the restraunt remaining open to the public after the event that occurred. ::::Your comment about Brenda and Charlie doesn't support anything. ::::So Brenda has ADAM, SO WHAT? Are you suggesting that this implies the restaurant is still open? Citizens weren't paid in ADAM, that was a cut concept. Or are you saying the business is open, she's being paid, and is using the money to buy ADAM? That's a ridiculously huge leap. The fact that she says "she earned it" means nothing! Maybe she just killed a BD and harvested a LS's ADAM. ::::How could it remain open in any fashion? With a war raging on do you honestly think they's manage to get food and cooking supllies to the kitchen to be prepared but not clean up the decorations/rubble? ::::"'operate' under odd/strained/war conditions" ::::Are you suggesting the place turned into some kind of soup kitchen? I wish you'd be more direct with your statements. What makes you think "fishemen from Port Neptune" would be coming to the restaurant in the first place? The place is too high scale and The Fighting McDonagh's Tavern is closer. ::::Unownshipper (talk) 01:22, April 17, 2014 (UTC) ::::But if you look at the Kashmir there's not even signs of such things and have you seen in what condition the is in kitchen? ::::Charlie and Brenda are not in the right state of mind to make food, imagine them handling a knife and stove. ::::Why Kashmir? there's so many better places to hold such a place such as Arcadia or Neptune's Bounty. ::::I don't think that the Pheromone Control thing would make people less aggressive, you don't see any "Civilized" behavior like that anywhere. ::::You see two splicers in Olympus Hights! guarding there home and property, that's probably what Brenda and Charlie are doing or they forgot something or just couldn't reach there homes. ::::This is Rapture, charity is bad, why would Brenda, a respected businesses woman turn her luxury restaurant in to a soup kitchen? ::::We don't even know if Brenda or Charlie can make food, its not child's play and for a large amount of people, what if no one would show up? food is scares and goes to waist and how would they market it, its not like we heard: "''Are you hungry? aren't caned food and dumpster diving your thing? Come to the Kashmir for a up lifting meal at the Welcome Center , No bombs this time! "Blink". ::::Just lock at the Manta Ray Lounge, that's basically the same idea as what your saying and look how that ended. ::::Shacob (talk) 23:03, April 18, 2014 (UTC) * *::::- *::::How dense are you? You're just as bad as most of the writing done for Infinite or Burial at Sea or even either Bioshocks. All the stories have their faults but it was still basically cohesive but you've convoluted what happens and is known/ seen in-game with your own fantasy world of how things run, as if you're writer or creator of this world. * *::::So a messy kitchen cant have food made in it ? You think the standards would sill be Cordon Bleu when all that was available was fish and potatos ? *::::It was all mush, piles of rotted mush with much of the kitchen in a derelict state. There's not much cooking in there and Brenda is the only "employee" as you'd call it and she was in no a way cook, but a restuarant owner. * *::::Who says? Brenda sure wields a gun effectively. Splicers arent incapacitated and what do you think they eat ? slime out of the puddles? Alot of people can 'cook' without even thinking about it. *::::And I quote: * "Come back and taste me!" : All splicers can weild guns and would you call them sane? These people who have done atrocious things without any sense of consciousness, who rip little girls for an addictive substance, who ramble on thinking things in past tense and have traits borderline compulsive? Yes completely sane : :::You mean why would you want to operate a kitchen in a restaurant that has a kitchen in it ? :::Why Arcadia ? to feed the murderous Saturnine? Neptunes Bounty would still be operating and they might have the odd fish-fry once in a while. :::Before I mention the Kashmir again, I'm going to bring up the Saturnine, the crazed splicers who perform cannabilism. Now why would they resort to cannablism if Rapture was abundant with food? Why would any splicer complain about going hungry or scavenge for food if your soup kitchen in the Kashmir was up and running like you so believe it is? Again, a derelict ''kitchen. ::: :::'If Ryan wanted Rapture to ever be restored it BETTER make Splicers less aggressive.' :::'Remember the Bounty? The Splicers after that Bounty are the ones you see in the game. All the rest are running away from that Guy running about slaughtering everything in sight.' :::'L'ess aggressive? You do realize who you're speaking of right? For one, they're splicers, the pheromone control can only do so much, it would seem to be used just to reset them in a way or retarget them to a target. The bounty was just for the player's sake for an understanding, because truly, Ryan could have had the pheromone spread out throughout Rapture, said that and ALL splicers in vicinity would be on watch, for the most part. And where exactly has it happened in game of a splicer running away from you apart from going to heal themselves? ::: :::'Could be, but dont they have a home somewhere else if there is no point being at a wrecked and deserted restaurant? "I earned it" (Brenda saying) - doesnt that sound like she is still working ?? and what did she previously have as an occupation ??' :::Many locations throughout Rapture was probably destroyed, blocked off, sunken or taken over that left many to leave their homes and hold out in either familiar places or strongholds. "I earned it" can have two different meanings, the meaning you see is of someone in a normal situation earning it through work in exchange for money. Now, this is Rapture, and how would you earn Adam? In pure form, how would you get pure form (Notice, there's no vial for Adam or bottle)? Murdering a little sister. So yes, she earned it. ::: :::'Again, NOT charity. Ryan had to keep people alive to ever have a chance to rebuild his City. You never heard of being paid with food? You think this is normal Rapture any more? A 'soup kitchen' is merely a place that people get mass fed in a simple way. ' :::Do you think Ryan cares honestly? If so, wouldn't he, oh I dont know, apply this "soup kitchen" line of thought you've thought up for him for those in Apollo Square and Pauper's Drop? Oh wait, he'd never because that is the dreaded act of altruism, the scorn of Ryan's society. The man killed Arcadia nearly trying to suffocate those in Rapture. Do you see any people using money apart from the player? Splicers pockets filled with money yet they are kicking vending machines or trying to hack it. ::: :::'Its not like we heard ALOT of things. Theres a kitchen there and assuming someone is supplying food/making it available then why not have Brenda and Charlie keep working at their profession, feeding other people who are working at THEIR professions (like plugging leaks, fixing air vents, fishing, farming, distributing materials, whatever is keeping people alive)' :::Applying your logic, there's a theme park there and assuming the ride is operational then why not have the splicers there keep working at their profession? I'm pretty sure there's a sign saying "Do not operate machinery under the influence of ADAM", if not there should because ADAM is like any addictive drugs and substances, you aren't coherant. ::: :::'NOT the same idea.' :::'That was much earlier under Atlas (who I think when he tried to become 'boss' would have actually gotten his head blown off or have been incinerated), That was BEFORE the City fell apart and then the Pheromone Control could calm anyone down. That was in a prison where insane inmates ran rampant. And strangely, the "Fontaine's" prison WAS supposed to being supplied by food by Ryan - so did Atlas grab it all for his 'revolution' (and dole it out as he saw fit) and the splicers didnt take kindly to that ? ' :::Oh so when stock piling or passing food out for money as you previous mentioned before that didn't work for Atlas, it'll work for Ryan? Considering the splicers we see in Burial at Sea were precursors to the splicers we see in Bioshock, I'm pretty sure any stock piling is impossible (ex. Look at any store, shops or homes to see food and supplies mostly cleared out out of kitchens or safes or whatever type of storage or rooms there'd be. To reiterate what you said with a few fill in the blanks of my own: :::::''It worked fine for Atlas LATER. Im taking about pre-Kashmir and specificly IN Fontaine's Department Store where the 'people' there are his ex-minions NOT poor people who he preyed on later to coerce their support. Think of a criminal gang. Ruthless people, already lawbreakers. This guy you never saw before tries to make himself 'boss' and starts ordering you around. You have a gun or plasmid which can kill him easily. It just takes ONE of all those thugs to decide they didnt like 'Atlas' lording it over them to simply kill him . If he reveals himself as 'Fontaine' who had the reputation then it would 'get out ' :::::and so much for all that twisty half-assed plot. ::::: :::::"so did Ryan grab it (food) all for his 'restoration' (and dole it out as he saw fit) and the splicers didnt take kindly to that ? " 16:15, April 29, 2014 (UTC) ::::*''The problem with Fontaine trapped in that store is that HE was smart enough to be a mile away from the Neptunes Bounty shootout and to have previously prepared multiple 'safe houses' to hide in while he 'died' and Rapture Security rounded up many of his minions.'' ::::*''They had to imbed him in this mess of a plot to make believe it was part of the old storylines. Unfortunately they tied in WAY TOO MANY things (Suchong "the universal Genius" is another raft of illogical and lazy writing).'' ::::*''I wont even go into how STUPID a portrayal that so-called 'prison' situation was. Again, you almost couldnt possibly make it any more likely to FAIL -- but then thats the whole bit -- of them (game writers) having to have the REAL game be a shoot-em-up slaughterfest -- thats the priority, NOT having a logical/cohesive plot. It being DLC closing out the company probably went a long way in making nobody care.'' :::::: Open for Business (continued) You're thinking into it in your narrowing perspective of how you personally think and summoned up in your head. Ultimately, the writers decide what happens is going to happen and as much as you go with your own words, its not the word of canon. Yes not everyone spliced, we see hear from these people post-Kashmir (Diane McClintock, Bill McDonagh, Anya Andersdotter, etc.) and as far as we know, they either went into hiding (Tenenbaum, Sinclair, Lamb) or died by the hands of splicers or desperate people. Like McDonagh said, it was an arms race, people lining up to get powered up till the point of a plasmid shortage. But think to it, when you think you clear out an area, when you later walk about the same area, more splicers are exploring, either trying to find you in specific or because its their territory. ''' '''Again, in what instance have you seen splicers running away from Jack? Only instances is when they run away to heal themselves or get out of dodge or Steinman creating a blockage. I don't assume, I see. You assume that splicers would have enough sense in mind to run away. Going by your logic, wouldn't splicers run away when they see their numbers decimated by the boy wonder? Again, the splicers scavenged through safes, corpses or trash piles for food. The sane left population either had a steady source or kept a stockpiled supply to last. Well, who's to say they didn't or any other group of splicers didn't? As you are thinking into the life of splicers I can as well, what if they were truly desperate and saw little sisters deriving ADAM from corpses and thinking they could do the same and consume the body to get ADAM. Bigger picture right? And there are no "normal" splicers, there are just splicers, the crazed. Of course, splicers have a sense of self preservation (being aware when an enemy like the player, other splicers or big daddys are around) but thats just basic animalistic instinct. And how exactly would the splicers know that Jack was a madman? It is apparent Jack wasn't the only suspicious figure to arrive to Rapture without invitation (Johnny Topside, Meltzer), and its not like word travels fast considering most of the splicers who encounter Jack are killed by him. The only word splicers have of the player is via PSA from Ryan about his bounty. You do know in disasterous situations like civil wars or any wars, that desperate times call for desperate measures? Less people means more food for oneself or ones group. How many times would game makers how to show splicers killing each other? Lets see, splicer exploding another splicer at the crematorium, a splicer killing another splicer in an argument at Adonis Resort, having an enrage plasmid in generality, Steinman killing a splicer right before the player, a splicer fighting a houdini in fort frolic. oh yes, they don't fight each other. Pheromone control takes control of the splicers, why do you think there was an audio diary specifying it and why Ryan felt against it because it went against his ideals and how that was what turned the tides as Atlas' followers suddenly changed teams and he had to retreat with very few unspliced lackeys left at his expense. He probably started to put two and two together during the blocked radio transmissions thanks to Cohen in the Fort Frolic level because as you reach Hephaetus, he starts toying and feeding vague bits of information to the player. ''' '''He wanted to even kill the player more knowing the players "intention" (summoning Splicers to kill him in the trophy room and other parts of Hephaetus). After a certain point, he made his decision, to give Jack the slap of reality and betrayal as well as die on his own terms, telling Jack to kill him purposely. Sweat of your own brow, not the brow of others, Ryan considers himself to be the man who built the impossible when he just funded it, not physically build it himself. Gotta look at the smaller picture and look into the psych of these characters, most of which were self-centered and put themselves on a pedastal Simple proof - with all the destruction, people are still alive - ALOT of them. We go thru a tiny part of Rapture and still see lots of people. How long could YOU last with no food? SO its logical things still are being done and Ryan is trying to keep people alive. How does he do that? He gets people to stop fighting, he stops Atlas from interfering, and he organizes things that keep people alive. Pure form ? You did hear Ryan offer a 1000ADAM Bounty? He has the supply and runs the Little Sisters through much of the City. E wants things done and uses that to pay people to keep things together -- simple, no ? '' '''I never said that all the unspliced and/or sane people died out did I? I DID say that many had to retreat and create strongholds and probably ventured out or used the pneumo system to trade with other survivors (as shown in the supposed deleted content of BS2). Ryan killed off his head engineer McDonagh, killed off Langford who maintained Arcadia, a source of Rapture's air supply, doesn't sound like a man concerned about perserving the very few saned left, let alone helping those who would be capable of rebuilding the city (he ignored the Wales brothers, the architects of Rapture, and left them into debt). He was a hermit, locking himself up in Rapture Central Control, and he didn't seem to literally fix every nook and cranny of Rapture but still to have it running (old PSA announcements saying Rapture is still on the rise, etc.). So you're saying Ryan paid Brenda for a deed shes done? seems unlikely given her speech nor Ryans concludes anything to that and is more likely she killed a little sister for the ADAM slug inside her, since that is the only way to retrieve ADAM in its "pure form", the slug. As far as we know, He has his own personal supply of ADAM as honey to a city full of flies. I doubt he has his hands on any more little sisters given Big Daddies as their protectors or Tenenbaum saving them. Why would they intentionally go to Ryan, the little sisters? Seems like, as BaS proposes, a symboitic bond, Big Daddies need Little Sisters ADAM and Little Sisters need protection from big daddies.' Again, he cares about the city, but that doesn't entirely mean its people. Even at the end, he ordered the self destruction of his city, because if he cant have it, no one can. Now, knowing that there are people, either sane or spliced in his city, doesn't sound like he wants to help preserve it anymore. No, the act of building the city was not from altruism, not because it was something the craftsmen could put into their portfolio for free, Ryan paid them, promised them a city where they would supposedly thrive in in a laissez faire esque state. For their own gain is exactly what Ryan wants, not against. I mean, at first he revelled at how Fontaine was able to be the top of his game and said that he was a prime example of a Rapture man. And yet, despite dollars currency being "useless" you see splicers messing and tampering with the machines, trying to get supplies out of it. Again, you are assuming that they'd pay each other in ADAM. Thats a possibly and just as much as you see the greater picture, i see this as a greater picture as well. If splicers knew someone was witholding an amount of ADAM, would they so kindly want to trade? NO, they'd kill for it (at least until the events of Bioshock 2 where they preserve the Little Sisters and are given ADAM via Lamb for "good" deeds, and yet even in BS2, if you weren't part of the Rapture family, you were considered the enemy and killed off for the most part). Okay, I'll try this exercise, for instance, if I was amongst the rich and mighty, I'd be fearful of my life, heck at first I'd carry a gun around me at all times and jitter everytime I heard a large clank, but thats if I even go outside considering the war is still going on, with structural damage happening to all parts of the city, I'd take whatever I can and hide out, maybe assemble a small group if possible. ' '''Last resort (or even first) I would have to arm myself with more than just firearms since I know the constables of Rapture are nearly decimated and hired untrained nobodies as constables (Bioshock: Rapture book), after all, every man for himself. Now if I was poor, even worse, I'd lose all hope, as if it wasn't hard enough living in the poorer areas of Rapture, now there's a full out war happening with dead littered in the streets and next door neighbors killing each other regardless of class, not being able to leave as Apollo Square and other adjacent areas being on lockdown and with what. ' 'I'm not able to afford plasmids, only the rich and those part of Fontaine's crew had access to it, ' 'what's the point of trying to live if I'm going to end up dying in the hands of another man or woman. Like that? Even before the New Years Riots, with tensions high, they (Sinclair Solutions under Ryan Industries) refurbished novelty and relatively weak plasmids into combat plasmids. And ADAM is a drug, get even the littlest taste of one and you're hooked and you'd want more, there's no controlling it. ' 'Look at how real druggies in the real world are. Many don't make it back or quit, and those who do tend to revert back. Do you not remember what Atlas or even Tenenbaum and many others say through the entirety of the world? It messed with your genetical code, that sounds like hard stuff as is. People killing babies in cribs, faces deteoriating as fast as their minds creating monsters that come out of the "bible". ' 'The book goes more into depth with this, as the first tests on plasmids showed subjects becoming horrible disfigured to the point of being unrecognizable as a normal being. ' 'Now, tell me, does THAT sound like some weak addictive drug? ' 'Even in the precursor Splicer dialogue, one speaks of continually trying to improve his looks and "aesthetics" to impress a lady. Whether I personally know druggies or not, if I said either or I'd have as much credibility of knowing the adverse effects of drugs as you do, yet its always in the media, its taught in health classes and even seminars are held to advice not only adults but young teens and kids. There are documentaries, tv shows, movies and even touched on by cartoons in a lighter tone. ' '''So while yes, in moderation and great control, a person can still strive and stay sane enough BUT given the circumstances after the riots, people stormed the markets for plasmids to arm themselves with for their own or their families/ friends protection (look at BS2's Multiplayer characters' reasons for splicing. Each have their own reason, and even though it may or may not be considered canon, it gives a perspective into the lives of many denizens). Just like Jack or Delta or Sigma, Booker, for gameplay reasons alike, can't have effects that the player can visually see in first person. And yet, through the mix of his ex-minions, there are a small group of close followers that know of Atlas' true identity, a close knit group that Atlas can trust and most likely must have had a leadership type of role or connection to the ex-crew junkies roaming the department store. ' '''Atlas doesn't order anyone around except for his lackeys, even lawbreakers report to higher ups like mafias or even the most infamous gangs have and need a figurehead to look up to, and people follow word of mouth. ' 'And not everyone locked in there was Fontaine's gangs, many were simply employees (female splicers with teacher dialogues, male splicers with salesmen dialogue, etc.) ' 'A guy who made a name of himself in poorer regions like Apollo Square and now in with these folks? It is plausible that while the poor population remained relatively unspliced due to the high prices of ADAM (pre-Kashmir), ' '''Fontaine's crew for the most part would have been spliced up the wazoo so adding both to a mix, he has his army, both of which were under his wing (as Fontaine) to begin with. There would have been a month or two before the department store got hastily converted to a prison and Atlas (due to his rise of power not gone unnoticed by Ryan) put into Fontaine's in hopes that he would die by the hides of the ruthless. But its a plot device obviously, looking at the perspective of a single instead of than the whole as you seem to have it, if they were to kill Atlas, then what? Nothing, no game, no story, and even a more lost convoluted story. And yet again, there is your expressed opinion given things didn't go the way you thought up in your head to be due to your own idea of how Rapture was, which is all fine and dandy, but as I said, the writers of the game, no matter how good or bad it is, has the end saying. But yet, he was still smart enough, he had his office at the topic of the department wing, had a secret office behind the bar and probably many more other hiding places or two in his OWN department store. ' How exactly did they? I mean, it didn't really take much to sway those in the poorer areas (refer to Fontaine's audio diary of "... hand these mugs a cot and a bowl of soup, and they give me their lives." Story point of view, if he thought since it worked again but under his Atlas persona, then it should work in here too. ' See? Reasoning, despite it ending up not to work the same way but you can see the reason why he'd done this. And now you're just nit picking pointless plot points that aren't even big plot points that contribute to the story. ' '''Nonetheless, Suchong the universal genius is Suchong honking his own horn. It is known that Suchong is into himself, on a high horse and believes everyone else to be stupid and second rate. ' '''With Tenenbaum gone, he could take all the credit to and for himself, only feeding into his ego. And Ryan didn't care, the less people asked about Tenenbaum, the better. ' Stupid portrayal? Really, because a city under the sea wasn't unbelievable enough, another prison hanging upside down over an abyss wasn't unbelievable enough? You're thinking from an individualistic point of view not a view of the whole. ' Do you think people would play this if they knew it was just an expositional game mechanic? If all you did was walk around and see events happen around you or have the whole game just be in stealth (which a large chunk of players dislike or aren't good at, which is challenging to make as is to play). And yet thats what you expect, to be fed a logical plot? ' '''a plot that covers an entirety of a fiction city in a fictional world. That is an insult to say, they could have reused all of the props and wiz from Infinite and stamped on Rapture on it, but they didn't. ' '''Despite being laid off, they worked to make this last bit of a finale to be the best possible given the time and anticipation. Blame the writers if you will, but don't doubt the work and thought put into the modeling and animation, which in my opinion was much more fluidly animated than Infinite itself. The best you should do with what new bits of information we have is incorporate it, redact some bits and pieces from either this DLC or previous installments to make it cohesive, not just badger it because you hated the main Infinite game to start with for your own agenda. :People! :What are we even arguing about at this point? Picking apart the minutiae of these debates isn't getting us anywhere. These discussions aren't convincing anyone, they're not productive. Let's just let it go. :Unownshipper (talk) 21:06, May 1, 2014 (UTC) By 1960, The party balloons are still up there (filled with glitter if you pop them) :Maybe they were held in place by a piece of scotch tape. :Unownshipper (talk) 22:58, June 5, 2014 (UTC) This is a mood concept. This concept made by Scott Duquette of a festive party at what is clearly the Kashmir, with its Atlas Statue, is a mood concept. It was meant to showcase the mood of Rapture before the fall and not actually the restaurant, it was just chosen as a location for the piece. Here is my source: https://www.artstation.com/artwork/6aKEW I don't think the image need to be removed from the Kashmir page, but the image description needs to be changed, to clear that this is not concept art of the Kashmir but for the mood (if that makes sense). The addition of this on the BioShock Infinite Removed Content page however needs removed or changed. --Shacob (talk) 18:14, May 25, 2016 (UTC) Removed Trivia *Despite depicted as a functioning restaurant, the kitchen doesn't have a faucet or sink."